Author Topic: OT's GONE WILD!  (Read 261767 times)

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Offline UncleLar

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #875 on: March 31, 2012, 06:40 PM »
Orwell and March Madness

I am a fan of Joe Nocera, who I usually but do not always agree with. I thought this was interesting, particularly if it is true that the NCAA is playing with th numbers in its commercial.


They aren't playing any worse with the numbers than Nocera is.

Here's the remarks in question:

"Is it true that black male athletes have a higher graduation rate than other students? It is not. The N.C.A.A. has created several other Orwellian concepts, such as an Academic Progress Rate, which allows it to use data to create the illusion that athletes are doing better academically than their peers.

But Richard Southall, who directs the College Sport Research Institute at the University of North Carolina — along with two colleagues, E. Woodrow Eckard of the University of Colorado-Denver and Mark Nagel at the University of South Carolina — have done rigorous studies that show the opposite. In comparing college basketball players with their true peer group — full-time college students — their data show that the athletes are 20 percent less likely to graduate than nonathletes. They also parsed the data by race: of the teams in this year’s March Madness, for instance, the black athletes are 33 percent less likely to graduate than nonathletes."


The NCAA's commercial says "athletes", Nocera and the other two studies reference "male basketball players" and "black male athletes".   They are subsets of "athletes".   


If all you are interested in is the major sports, here's a snapshot.



Clearly there are some problems reflected in that data.  But, even so, the strides that have been made over the last 20 years are major.




For more info, try here.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 06:53 PM by UncleLar »
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Offline UncleLar

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #876 on: March 31, 2012, 07:04 PM »
Orwell and March Madness

I am a fan of Joe Nocera, who I usually but do not always agree with. I thought this was interesting, particularly if it is true that the NCAA is playing with th numbers in its commercial.


I also have a BIG problem with this statement.

"The N.C.A.A. has created several other Orwellian concepts, such as an Academic Progress Rate, which allows it to use data to create the illusion that athletes are doing better academically than their peers."

That couldn't be anything further from the truth.   Anyone who had done any sort of quality control work will tell you that you a measure like Graduation Rate is useless.  It's a result measurement and it's fine as that goes.  But what you really need to drive improvement is a process measure.   Grad Rate's big problem is that it measures things long after the initial problem arises.   If a kid flunks out of school after his first semester, he doesn't show up in a grad rate number until SIX years later.  Knowing something broke six years after the fact isn't very helfpul.   The APR provides a kind of "just in time" process measure.  It identifies problems at the end of every semester so you aren't waiting six years to fix them.   It has nothing to do with creating any "illusion" of kids doing well. 
« Last Edit: March 31, 2012, 07:07 PM by UncleLar »
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Offline MarkH

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #877 on: March 31, 2012, 08:49 PM »
Lar,
I like those 2 charts, but I can't seem to understand how the "student body" stats can jump around so much.  For instance, shouldn't the student body # beside men's basketball and football be the same, since you're talking about the whole (or maybe just male) student body?

Offline tjb

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #878 on: March 31, 2012, 09:16 PM »
Thanks for checking into this, Lar. I was surprised by the numbers and have seen sme things with Nocera lately like that that have surprised me.
tjb
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Offline UncleLar

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #879 on: March 31, 2012, 10:04 PM »
Lar,
I like those 2 charts, but I can't seem to understand how the "student body" stats can jump around so much.  For instance, shouldn't the student body # beside men's basketball and football be the same, since you're talking about the whole (or maybe just male) student body?


The key is in the subheader - the data is gender-ethnic matched (and it appears sub-division). 


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Offline MarkH

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #880 on: March 31, 2012, 11:43 PM »
Thanks, Lar... that FBS thing is what threw me.

Offline timauman

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #881 on: April 3, 2012, 04:06 PM »
Apparently, these football players aren't interested in majoring in Geography at Texas Tech.

And I'm not taking a swipe at TTEch's Geosciences Dept.
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Offline UncleLar

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #882 on: April 3, 2012, 04:28 PM »
Apparently, these football players aren't interested in majoring in Geography at Texas Tech.

And I'm not taking a swipe at TTEch's Geosciences Dept.


There have been a couple of instances of Penn State football recruits winding up in Philly looking for Penn State - and, rumor has it that PSU basketball wound up with Carver Clinton from Alabama in the 60s when he got lost looking for Penn and wound up in State College. 
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Offline mjg

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #883 on: April 4, 2012, 05:25 PM »

Offline Skeeza

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #884 on: April 4, 2012, 05:43 PM »
Apparently, these football players aren't interested in majoring in Geography at Texas Tech.

And I'm not taking a swipe at TTEch's Geosciences Dept.


Sometimes we forget taht these are 16/17/18 year old kids. 

They are all high school juniors.    ...granted, they should have brought a GPS.

A side note came up from a conversation at the office.  If a 'recruit' visits a compus on his own, or for an unofficial visit, is he allowed to stay overnight with any of the current players?

Offline UncleLar

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #885 on: April 4, 2012, 08:08 PM »

A side note came up from a conversation at the office.  If a 'recruit' visits a compus on his own, or for an unofficial visit, is he allowed to stay overnight with any of the current players?


Only if he compensates the University the going rate for the room.
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Offline UncleLar

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #886 on: April 5, 2012, 03:20 AM »
In case anyone ever wonders where I got the UncleLar name from.  It was a nickname given to me by a guy in Chicago about 20 years ago and comes from this guy, Larry Lujack.

I listen to the spots and discovered that several of them end with a PSU Lion like roar.

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« Last Edit: April 5, 2012, 03:32 AM by UncleLar »
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Offline mjg

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #887 on: April 5, 2012, 11:42 AM »

Offline tjb

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #888 on: April 5, 2012, 11:43 AM »
God has given Pennsylvania the rare opportunity to vindicate itself twice for the same colossal error, and it looks like my home state is going to take it up.
tjb
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Offline MarkH

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #889 on: April 5, 2012, 12:59 PM »
God has given Pennsylvania the rare opportunity to vindicate itself twice for the same colossal error, and it looks like my home state is going to take it up.


A little bit dated of a view , but I'm hoping that the numbers move and PA has the opportunity to vindicate itself for another colossal error 4 years ago   ;)


Offline mjg

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #890 on: April 5, 2012, 01:03 PM »
God has given Pennsylvania the rare opportunity to vindicate itself twice for the same colossal error, and it looks like my home state is going to take it up.


A little bit dated of a view , but I'm hoping that the numbers move and PA has the opportunity to vindicate itself for another colossal error 4 years ago   ;)


20 years from now, what will people be saying about Obama's presidency?  What will his legacy be (other than the obvious of being the first African American President)?

Offline tjb

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #891 on: April 5, 2012, 01:24 PM »
1. Universal health care
2. Out of Iraq and Afghanistan
3. Stemmed (along with late W. actions, such as the auto bailout) the biggest economic recession/depression since the Great Depression.

Of course, if you're religious beliefs are Hayekian, three cannot possibly be true. And we are currently suffering runaway hyperinflation. :)
tjb
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Offline mjg

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #892 on: April 5, 2012, 02:02 PM »
1. Universal health care
2. Out of Iraq and Afghanistan
3. Stemmed (along with late W. actions, such as the auto bailout) the biggest economic recession/depression since the Great Depression.

Of course, if you're religious beliefs are Hayekian, three cannot possibly be true. And we are currently suffering runaway hyperinflation. :)

Will #1 hold up in court?  We should know soon.
#2, we are still in Afghanistan.
#3, okay, I'll go along with that.

Offline kidcoyote

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #893 on: April 6, 2012, 11:34 AM »
1. Universal health care
2. Out of Iraq and Afghanistan
3. Stemmed (along with late W. actions, such as the auto bailout) the biggest economic recession/depression since the Great Depression.

Of course, if you're religious beliefs are Hayekian, three cannot possibly be true. And we are currently suffering runaway hyperinflation. :)


Will #1 hold up in court?  We should know soon.
#2, we are still in Afghanistan.
#3, okay, I'll go along with that.


On #3, yeah that Chevy Volt is a real killer.

#4 And the worst ever economic recovery out of a deep recession. The Great Depression recovery was far superior.
#5 a complete ignoramus on the topic of judicial review and the Constitution. Oh, that pesky Constitution.
#6 highest gas prices in history at this time of year.
#7 throws money at "green energy" sinkhole to his friends, like $1.6 billion to RFK jr., and $500 million to Al Gore's Fisker Auto, which makes the cars in Finland, while restricting US fossil fuel development on Federal lands, and Keystone pipeline stupidity. Due to private development, with no help from the administration, evil E&P companies have found so much natural gas, prices are down 75% since '08. North Dakota, which has the Bakken Shale(oil), has 200+ oil wells, and is producing more than 700,000 bopd. Montana, which has the Bakken formation in its state as well, but on Federal lands, has less than 10 wells, due to Federal withholding of permits and bureaucracy. Oil and gas production is up despite him, not because of him.
#8 President teleprompter. (see video). At least he's saving on speechwriter fees.
#9 more interested in NCAA basketball bracket than Iranian nuclear program. Abandonment of Israel.

Of course, if you're religious beliefs are that the government is all good and all knowing and benevolent, and don't mind running the printing presses 24/7, like Zimbabwe, the Weimar Republic, Serbia, etc., you may like what's going on.

Same Tired Rhetoric

Offline tjb

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #894 on: April 6, 2012, 12:00 PM »
Tribalism. Love me some E.O.
tjb
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Offline UncleLar

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #895 on: April 6, 2012, 12:53 PM »
Penn State ASME Rube Goldberg Machine 2011
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Offline tjb

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #897 on: April 6, 2012, 07:52 PM »
1. Universal health care
2. Out of Iraq and Afghanistan
3. Stemmed (along with late W. actions, such as the auto bailout) the biggest economic recession/depression since the Great Depression.

Of course, if you're religious beliefs are Hayekian, three cannot possibly be true. And we are currently suffering runaway hyperinflation. :)

 on #3 I think that history is going to say that Bernanke was very bold when he needed to be bold, and kept us from a depression.  Whoever wins the next election will be remembered as a great president, because there is a pretty low chance that we will be seeing anything but strong growth by 2015.

Offline tjb

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #898 on: April 6, 2012, 08:07 PM »
1. Universal health care
2. Out of Iraq and Afghanistan
3. Stemmed (along with late W. actions, such as the auto bailout) the biggest economic recession/depression since the Great Depression.

Of course, if you're religious beliefs are Hayekian, three cannot possibly be true. And we are currently suffering runaway hyperinflation. :)

 on #3 I think that history is going to say that Bernanke was very bold when he needed to be bold, and kept us from a depression.  Whoever wins the next election will be remembered as a great president, because there is a pretty low chance that we will be seeing anything but strong growth by 2015.

Yes, it was a combination of the Fed and the stimulus. Brave action by Bush and Bernanke, and Treasury under Paulson -- all of whom had at least proclaimed different religious beliefs in their political lives -- and Obama, who got stuck with a larded-up stimulus bill but knew he had to act before we plunged into Depression. It was all out of the Keynes handbook, with the exception of the stimulus, which was too small.
tjb
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Offline MarkH

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Re: OT's GONE WILD!
« Reply #899 on: April 6, 2012, 10:10 PM »
1. Universal health care
2. Out of Iraq and Afghanistan
3. Stemmed (along with late W. actions, such as the auto bailout) the biggest economic recession/depression since the Great Depression.

Of course, if you're religious beliefs are Hayekian, three cannot possibly be true. And we are currently suffering runaway hyperinflation. :)

 on #3 I think that history is going to say that Bernanke was very bold when he needed to be bold, and kept us from a depression.  Whoever wins the next election will be remembered as a great president, because there is a pretty low chance that we will be seeing anything but strong growth by 2015.

Yes, it was a combination of the Fed and the stimulus. Brave action by Bush and Bernanke, and Treasury under Paulson -- all of whom had at least proclaimed different religious beliefs in their political lives -- and Obama, who got stuck with a larded-up stimulus bill but knew he had to act before we plunged into Depression. It was all out of the Keynes handbook, with the exception of the stimulus, which was too small.
Am I the only only one here (besides Kid) who feels like the Stimulus was too big?   Well, not necessarily too big, but too wasteful...  The point of the stimulus was supposed to be quick (like the old carb spray for your engine... just enough to get the engines running again)  A LOT of that money was wasted becuase, to borrow a phrase, enough of it wasn't "Shovel ready" and wasn't focued on getting the economy kick-started.   Making the stimulus bigger, in my mind, would be a net drag on the economy because it would take more private equity out of the market and saddle us with an even larger debt, for incrementaly less economic "stimulus effect".